Gary North’s advice to Joel McDurmon concerning his up and coming debate with Don Preston…
“Now Joel my son, I’m going to try and set my conviction aside for a moment of personally wanting to stone you to death (if I could change the laws of our land today to be more godly) because you are a Sabbath/Law breaker/heretic, so that I might advise you (because I’m a coward and won’t debate them myself) on how to deal with Full Preterism. Of course hopefully you and DeMar (American Vision) realize that you have already given way to much ground to Full Preterism as it is:
1). You have interpreted what I once edited for Gentry as the “ONE” resurrection of Dan. 12:2-3 as fulfilled in AD 70 and interpreted the parable of the wheat and tares as being fulfilled at the end of the OC age (Matt. 13:39-43, 49) and not at the end of history. As I have rebuked the FP and now have to exhort you — you have “broken from the historic faith of the Christian church” on these passages! Since we have surrendered what scholars consider to be the “clearest” physical resurrection in the OT Dan. 12:2-3 to an AD 70 resurrection, make sure you don’t make matters worse by focusing or spending too much time on a less clear passage on the resurrection such as in Job 19. This would clearly show our desperation!
2). Don’t forget we have surrendered not just Matthew 24 but now 25:31-46 to AD 70 and to the Full Preterist movement. DeMar hasn’t helped claiming he agrees with scholarship which teaches us that John’s version of the OD is found in the book of Revelation. We don’t want them making our own PP parallels which we do everywhere in the NT when it suits us against Dispensationalism. I forsee something like this being a problem Matt. 25:31-46=Rev. 20:5-13. I’m not sure what early church fathers taught Matthew 25:31 was NOT the Second Coming – but let’s just avoid that issue for now and hope no one brings it up.
3). And bless Gary’s heart, but he has also painted himself into a corner in going into print writing that mello should be translated as the glory “about to be revealed” in (Romans 8:18-23YLT/WEY/AV). This is obviously a problem because this is the glorification of the Church which was “about to be revealed” and it is contextually tied to the creation being liberated from her groanings and decay — when the redemption of the body takes place! Geesh, you and DeMar have even surrendered the salvation of “all Israel” as taking place in AD 70 (cf. Rom. 11) to the Full Preterist movement! When will this madness end? But heres more to watch out for…
4). Please make sure you are not quick and hasty in associating yourself with or promote such known back and forth – where’s the hand that will feed me now type “panderers” as Sam Frost, whom take other views which “break from the historic faith of the Christian church” such as the 1,000 years millennium in Revelation 20 was between AD 30 – AD 70. Again we don’t want to show how many key and crucial passages we have surrendered to this movement and how “progressive” we have become to them.
5). And please whatever you do, don’t do what Jordan did in his debabe with Don Preston or make such comments as the resurrection of John 5:28-29 or parousia of 1 Cor. 15 “could be applied/fulfilled in AD 70.” A Partial Preterist James Jordan disciple Mike Bull has already publicly stated that the NT only teaches one “the parousia” and it took place in AD 70 – surrendering 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and 1 Cor. 15 to AD 70 and the Full Preterist movement! Good grief we are in serious trouble here!
6). We have to do some damage control and get an image change here especially with James Jordan doing so poorly in his debate with Don and hugging him in the hallways because his conscience was bothering him as he was getting struck with the Word of God. Let’s try my approach — come out tuff and acting like you know what you are talking about calling them “heretics” especially since Jordan and DeMar were and are too soft with them on this point and won’t do it. We obviously have no exegesis so maybe we can SCARE some people with rhetoric.
7). When I published, “HOUSE DIVIDED THE BREAK-UP OF DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY” we (Bahnesen, Gentry, DeMar and myself) pointed out that “PROGRESSIVE Dispensationalists” have given the farm away to covenant theology. I don’t want anyone seeing that we have not been able to engage with this movement over the last 20 years and how — OUR PROGRESSIVE PARTIAL PRETERIST VIEWS have surrendered key passages to them — having no less given the farm away to them than the Dispensationalists have to us.
8). Joel are you listening to me?!?”
“I’m sorry dad, I have had 10 months to study for this debate, but I have only studied for it this last month. I’ll have to probably just regurgitate Frost’s illogical “leads to” and Dispensational “I don’t see it so it can’t be fulfilled” type “arguments” and discredit the book I wrote on logic – but I will do what I have to.”
As you can clearly see Joel was half asleep on his feet during this exhortation from North and concerned PP on-lookers.
(I wasn’t there – and these aren’t acutal statements of course just some FP humor grounded in exegeticl and historical facts of North and AV giving the farm away to Full Preterism over the last 20 years).
Frost exchanged Christ’s tachos in Revelation 20:1-15—22:6 for Talbot’s PP/PI Burritos:
Dispensationalist Tommy Ice following our lead understands the problem for the Partial Preterist who insists the time texts in the book of Revelation refer to AD 70 – in that this would include the fulfillment of Revelation 20:7-15. Of John’s use of tachos he writes:
“Since Revelation 22:6 is a statement referring to the whole book of Revelation, it would be impossible to take táchos as a reference to A.D. 70 (as Gentry does) and at the same time hold that Revelation 20:7-9 teaches the second coming.”
David Green correctly noted that the problem for Sam Frost is that he has exchanged God’s táchos for Talbot’s burritos:
I wrote to Sam: I’m sure [Talbot is] confident he can mold you into his doctrinal image, as is evidenced by your gradual shift away from full preterism.
Sam responded: “You give talbot WAY too much power.”
Sam Frost, December, 2009: “Dr. Talbot told me he will be doing a series of lectures in his church on it in 2010, plus we are still on target for our debate-book. Realized Preterism…..I have some hunches, and have been right up to this point: the Second Coming BEGAN in A.D. 70. It will culminate in a postmillennial victory over the world in terms of culture and life, which, in turn, will bring about a manifestation of the perfection (resurrection) of all of life and a physical manifestation of the Lord – a culminative END to the Second Coming. It is something along those lines. I have picked this up from my talks with Talbot over burritoes….”
The record speaks for itself, Sam. About a year ago, Talbot taught you that the Second Coming “BEGAN in A.D. 70” and that it will be culminated and “manifested” in our future –in universal, physical perfection and incorruptibility.
That’s exactly what you’re “drifting” toward now.
There is no doubt that Talbot has molded you into his doctrinal image, Sam. Your implicit denial of that fact (above) is audacious, to say the least.
Somebody does indeed give Talbot WAY to much power: “You are the man,” Sam.
Remember years ago, when you used to let Scripture dictate your beliefs? When you didn’t have to hide the fact that you were subordinating your exegetical integrity to someone who has “WAY too much power” over you? Those were the good old days.
P.S. Dr. Kelly Birks (Master Theologian Exatraordinaire), August 25, 2010: “I am very glad to hear about the latest with Sam relative to the arena that it seems he is coming into. He sounds like he would agree with my book “The End of Sin”, as what [Sam] is saying is essentially what Dr. Talbot and i have been saying for a long time now. Perhaps Sam and I can begin to speak again… I think we should give it a shot.”
It is more than confusing how Frost and Talbot out of one side of their mouths can tell futurists that they should not refer to a FP as a Christian, and then out of the other side take them out to dinner (see FP Larry S. in the picture) and refer to them as Christians and grant them ministry degrees from their seminary! Talbot will gladly take Larry’s money as a student and equip him as a minister of the gospel (as a Full Preterist), only to later want to execute him (along with other heretics who break the sabbath and don’t baptize their children) when the Postmillennial kingdom begins to pick up steam. Hopefully Larry is staying away from Talbot’s burritos and will not allow Talbot to seduce him with free tuition etc…, as he has with a handful of others.
It is also puzzling as to how Sam Frost and American Vision continue to try and beef up Frost’s resume — as him at one time being a “Pastor,” and at the the same time will tell you they don’t consider Full Preterist’s Christians and that any “church” they organize should not be considered as a valid Christian church! They apparently don’t see the contradiction in equipping heretics who teach a “false gospel” with ministry degrees to plant churches they wouldn’t recognize as such? And yes, these men pride themselves on the use of logic – wow.
Talbot-Frost has somehow convinced another of his students Talbot-McDurmon of this Preterist Idealism. This is why these men are coming up with the NEW view that such passages as Dan. 12:2/John 5:28-29/Rom. 8:18-23/1 Cor. 15/Rev. 20 “could be applied/fulfilled in AD 70, but await a fuller/literal fulfillment at the end of time.” Again this is similar to PP James Jordan disciple Mike Bull who claims that the ONE “THE parousia” took place in AD 70 (1 Thess. 4:15-17/1 Cor. 15) and that there was a partial rapture and resurrection at that time awaiting another fuller or more complete one at the end of time. Frost was confused at one time if he was going to adopt a one coming PI ideal approach. Either way, Frost continues to claim his new views and tutorship of McDurmon and McDurmon’s comments in the debate should be considered as being in step with what G.K. Beale and other scholars are currently teaching. But I have called his bluff and he has yet to produce ANY quotes to support this claim. Gary DeMar and American Vision on one hand sniff the wind to get financial support from their creedal supporters, all the while coming up with some very new teachings that have in Gary North’s words, “broken from the faith of the historic Christian Church” — all the while condemning Full Preterists for doing this. Mr. North — “Thou [and your American Vision family] art the man.”
Hopefully Sam and other Partial Preterist’s will learn the “Say no to [Talbot’s] burritos, and just say yes to [Jesus’] tacos” song: