SAM FROST AND “THAT WHICH IS PERFECT”
BY DAVID A. GREEN
Dr. Birks and Dr. Talbot (hereafter referred to as “Sam”) have argued:
If all things are fulfilled and manifested today, and if believers therefore have “all things” now, and “all power” now, then believers shouldn’t have any sin in any way today. We shouldn’t commit any acts of sin anymore. We should have absolute, angelic perfection today. But we don’t. Therefore, all things are not yet manifested, and we await a future consummation/manifestation of Bible prophecy wherein history will end and all things will become absolutely perfect in every way.
My response:
Sam’s argument is a fine example of the fallacy of “begging the question.” Sam has smuggled futurist assumptions into his analysis of the preterist framework. Sam is assuming, wholly apart from Scripture, that when the ultimate consummation of Bible prophecy takes place, then procreation must end, and literal perfection must ensue. Yes, under those extra-biblical futurist assumptions, it does indeed follow, as Sam says, that we must be awaiting the future, biblical consummation of prophecy –since procreation is still continuing and we are not literally, absolutely perfect today. But as we know, the Bible does not support the futurist assumptions.
First, the Bible never portrays an end to procreation. It contains no hint of such a doctrine, not even implicitly. All the scriptures say about the duration of the kingdom of heaven and the duration of Christ’s priesthood for sinners is that they will never end (“a priest forever,” “a priest after the power of an endless life“), and that they continue “throughout all generations, for the eons of the eons.” Beyond statements such as these, any concept of a termination of the historic human race is mere speculation based on Scripture-less “logic,” i.e., our own sub-Divine, sub-biblical understanding (e.g., “the impossibility of infinity,” “fulfillment without manifestation,” “Cobra helicopters in Revelation chapter 9,” etc.). :^)
Second, the reason that believers on Earth do not have literal angelic sinlessness is because the kingdom is not –and as far as we can know, will never be– an amorphous mass of static errorless-ness. That’s a futurist fantasy, or at best, speculation. Instead, the kingdom of Christ is forever a priestly ministry of grace, redemption, forgiveness, faith, and hope “for all generations” of sinners –and there’s no biblical end in sight for this ministry. The church on Earth “forever” lives in a world wherein God’s chosen ones are born sinners; we come to know Him; we walk with Him till the end of our lives; and we receive our final, individual judgment/blessedness (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 14:13). And that final state for the individual believer is, of a certainty, “above all that we ask or think” (Eph. 3:20).
This is the order of the universe that Jesus created and brought to its full consummation in AD 70. We neither long for nor teach an extra-biblical termination of the “good” things that the Lord created and instituted. Sam does not seem to realize that when he says that history and the physical universe must “logically” end in order for the ultimate, prophetic “perfection” to be realized, he is implicitly teaching a tenet of GNOSTICISM/NEO-PLATONISM (i.e., Physical matter and “that which is perfect” are incompatible). That’s the very thing Sam is accusing full preterists of teaching.
Dave 🙂
Hi Dave,
Great post – very precise and clear as usual.
The odd thing of course is that this is a FP 101 (basic/fundamental) response given to futurists and yet we find it being given to a man that wants to redefine and take over the FP movement – all the while playing both sides under the disguise of innocently “exploring” the “social implications” of FPism. He then slanders the REAL FP community as “gnostic,” “unorthodox,” “neo-platonic,” ”illogical,” “being a “cult,” being “hyper-preterists,” etc… Lord willing the real and true FP community will see the severe confusion or out right deception of Sam and others like him that have attempted this sort of thing before – and begin making a healthy separation from Sam’s literal futurist hermeneutic and neo-platontic philosophy.
In Christ,
Mike S.
Hi Mike,
It is amazing. Sam is weary of discussing the elementary issue of the “time texts” and wants to move on to mature preterist doctrines. Yet he stumbles over something even MORE basic and fundamental than the time texts: Sola Scriptura.
Does the Bible teach that Christ’s priestly work of bringing men to Himself and forgiving them their sins will end? No. But Sam does.
Does the Bible teach that thousands of years after its prophecies are fulfilled, they will be “manifested”? No. But Sam does.
Does the Bible teach or even imply an end of procreation? No. But Sam does.
Does the Bible teach that the physical universe will not, and cannot, continue into future eternity? No. But Sam does.
Does the Bible say that all physical material must be eradicated in order for “that which is perfect” to come? No. But Sam the Gnostic/Neo-Platonist does.
Sam rejects full preterist theology PURELY on the basis of extra-scriptural “Logic” (Prov. 3:5).
Dave
Will the Real Sam Frost Please Stand Up?!?
The humble Full Preterist Sam:
Sam Frost wrote,
I have been publicly criticized by Sam for allegedly “reading his heart and motives” as to why he was leaving and finally left FP for PP. But let me finish this debate very quickly and just quote Sam himself: “I owe you an apology, Dave. I just wrote, http://thereignofchrist.com/2009/09/ban-on-preterist-blog/ I owe Mike one, too. And Ed. I got greedy. These constant attacks from Nut job Dee Dee Warren, Roderick supposedly stepping down, Dr. Talbot…all of it….I went after something that was not there, and my hand got hacked off. I have such a strong bend in me to get along with others….I believe in peace. I hate arguing. I was wrong about those guys….they are not Christians, as far as I am concerned. They may be, who knows, but it is not the Christianity I care for. I am a Full Preterist. I see your point. There is no prophecy not fulfilled. I stress effects, but realize salvation as the fulfillment. Sorry guys……the pressure here is great….every day, sam frost, sam frost, sam frost………..I want to move ahead. I am a Full Preterist. Period. It’s what the Bible teaches.” The link above deleted by Sam and Jason and this is what Sam had written there, “I want to also apologize to Mike Sullivan, Dave Green and Ed Hassert. I almost was sucked in, guys. Almost. I see your point on Isaiah 65, and Dave, I see your point on the questions.” Q
The hardened Futurist Sam:
Sam has since sought to be ordained by PP Dr. Talbot. He has gone on to accuse FP as being “Gnostic” and not a Christian view – and yet per Sam’s logic he is a new convert to Christianity and a novice. He shouldn’t be seeking to teach anyone.
Mike Sullivan:
Sam gave two apologies and I’m trying to give the context to both of them but the one given above is no longer at this link and I can’t find the other one. Sam at one time was trying to say that the PP and FP differences weren’t that big of a deal – we are all preterist Christians. I honestly didn’t know if Sam had been drinking when he wrote it. He later apologized for the comment.
Then after confronting Sam on his literal and futuristic interpretations of the long ages in Isaiah 65, Sam gave us another apology in which he was seeing the error of that hermeneutic. It was a little unclear, but I tried to think the best of Sam and ended up deleting his name from my Isaiah 65 article. But Sam has come full circle back to him being “sucked in” (his words) to a literal futurism/manifestation that bears all kinds of similarities with other futuristic “manifestation” views given by non-FP such as Birks and Talbot.
Unfortunately some FP think that all Sam was doing was innocently “exploring” the “social implications” of FP, when the reality is that Sam was interpreting spiritual NC kingdom promises with a literal/futuristic hermeneutic – Selah!
Sam’s views then and now are not FP in either the time or nature of fulfillment categories. His is a fence sitting inconsistent position. It must torment him since he prides himself in being so “logical.”
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